The New controversial talk-of-the-town WeSpeak

Matt Nestler ’10‘s views on Iraq Withdrawal

Excerpt (click on the link to read the whole thing):

“There exists a segment of the global Muslim community that hates the idea of America; they hate the fact that we are free, that we can freely dissent, and that we enjoy vast freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution…The lesson we must take from all this is that we cannot abandon our commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have already seen what would happen if we just packed up and left. The Islamic extremists would most certainly gain control of the country and Iraq would be overrun as a training camp for Islamic terrorism.”

No comment.

86 thoughts on “The New controversial talk-of-the-town WeSpeak

  1. Tommy Bahama

    Steadyjohn, you’re totally wrong. The defeat’s inevitable. Your friends currently in the White House know it, and that’s why they’re trying to maintain that the “surge” is succeeding just long enough until they can get the hell out of there and leave their (presumably Democratic) successor to deal with it. “the stain of an American defeat on their hands” is a burden that, actually, belongs to the Bush administration, which engineered the war and totally botched the ‘peace’. to anonymous @ 3:45actually, many Muslim extremists DO hate us for our cultural values, not just because the CIA has meddled in the Middle East since the 1950s. Yes, we engineered coups; yes, we were allied with some really bastard dictators; but, on the other hand, we armed al Qaeda and the mujahideen in order to allow them to fight the Soviets, viewed as the bigger evil, and have done a lot of other less-bad things. The fact is, certain Muslims hate us because they have an extremely fundamentalist and conservative view of Islam that compels them to resent a society as technologically advanced, as progressive, and as free as ours. Your denial of that fact, writing off Muslim extremist antipathy towards the US as solely due to our political meddlings, is completely misinterpreting the situation. Yes, clearly that plays a role, but our political meddlings actually have moved the moderates more than the extremists, by an exponential factor; and in case you didn’t know, it’s the extremists who are the ones flying the planes into buildings full of American civilians, NOT the moderates.

  2. Tommy Bahama

    Steadyjohn, you’re totally wrong. The defeat’s inevitable. Your friends currently in the White House know it, and that’s why they’re trying to maintain that the “surge” is succeeding just long enough until they can get the hell out of there and leave their (presumably Democratic) successor to deal with it. “the stain of an American defeat on their hands” is a burden that, actually, belongs to the Bush administration, which engineered the war and totally botched the ‘peace’.

    to anonymous @ 3:45

    actually, many Muslim extremists DO hate us for our cultural values, not just because the CIA has meddled in the Middle East since the 1950s. Yes, we engineered coups; yes, we were allied with some really bastard dictators; but, on the other hand, we armed al Qaeda and the mujahideen in order to allow them to fight the Soviets, viewed as the bigger evil, and have done a lot of other less-bad things. The fact is, certain Muslims hate us because they have an extremely fundamentalist and conservative view of Islam that compels them to resent a society as technologically advanced, as progressive, and as free as ours. Your denial of that fact, writing off Muslim extremist antipathy towards the US as solely due to our political meddlings, is completely misinterpreting the situation. Yes, clearly that plays a role, but our political meddlings actually have moved the moderates more than the extremists, by an exponential factor; and in case you didn’t know, it’s the extremists who are the ones flying the planes into buildings full of American civilians, NOT the moderates.

  3. steadyjohn

    The left have tried to engineer an American defeat in Iraq and turn it into another Vietnam. So far, thankfully, they have failed. As much as Clinton and Obama say they are against the war and will bring the troops home post haste, the dirty little secret is that, if elected,they will not do any such thing; they must avoid at all costs the stain of American defeat on their hands.

  4. steadyjohn

    The left have tried to engineer an American defeat in Iraq and turn it into another Vietnam. So far, thankfully, they have failed. As much as Clinton and Obama say they are against the war and will bring the troops home post haste, the dirty little secret is that, if elected,they will not do any such thing; they must avoid at all costs the stain of American defeat on their hands.

  5. steadyjohn

    The left have tried to engineer an American defeat in Iraq and turn it into another Vietnam. So far, thankfully, they have failed. As much as Clinton and Obama say they are against the war and will bring the troops home post haste, the dirty little secret is that, if elected,they will not do any such thing; they must avoid at all costs the stain of American defeat on their hands.

  6. Anonymous

    Americans are so fucking stupid. Do you asshats actually believe that Muslims hate America because it embodies so much that is grand? Muslims and/or Muslim extremists hate Americans because American has always played a meddlesome role in the Muslim World that has proved to be inimical to political advancement. For a world thus crippled, the rising against America is not unreasonable or ominous, it is perfectly normal. Any undergraduate jackass who urges people to support a failing war should enlist. Of course, that will never happen.

  7. Anonymous

    Americans are so fucking stupid. Do you asshats actually believe that Muslims hate America because it embodies so much that is grand? Muslims and/or Muslim extremists hate Americans because American has always played a meddlesome role in the Muslim World that has proved to be inimical to political advancement. For a world thus crippled, the rising against America is not unreasonable or ominous, it is perfectly normal. Any undergraduate jackass who urges people to support a failing war should enlist. Of course, that will never happen.

  8. Anonymous

    Americans are so fucking stupid. Do you asshats actually believe that Muslims hate America because it embodies so much that is grand? Muslims and/or Muslim extremists hate Americans because American has always played a meddlesome role in the Muslim World that has proved to be inimical to political advancement. For a world thus crippled, the rising against America is not unreasonable or ominous, it is perfectly normal. Any undergraduate jackass who urges people to support a failing war should enlist. Of course, that will never happen.

  9. Xiaoxi

    Ok you guys, it’s fairly obvious that it’s a clip. I couldn’t repost the entire thing on this blog. That’s what the link is for. And again, like I said in my earlier comment, what I find most irritating is the neo-imperialist world-policing attitude best represented by this excerpt but is present throughout the wespeak. Obviously this is MY point of view and MY truncating-job. I’m not trying to be unbiased, and I do take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.

  10. Xiaoxi

    Ok you guys, it’s fairly obvious that it’s a clip. I couldn’t repost the entire thing on this blog. That’s what the link is for. And again, like I said in my earlier comment, what I find most irritating is the neo-imperialist world-policing attitude best represented by this excerpt but is present throughout the wespeak. Obviously this is MY point of view and MY truncating-job. I’m not trying to be unbiased, and I do take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.

  11. Xiaoxi

    Ok you guys, it’s fairly obvious that it’s a clip. I couldn’t repost the entire thing on this blog. That’s what the link is for.

    And again, like I said in my earlier comment, what I find most irritating is the neo-imperialist world-policing attitude best represented by this excerpt but is present throughout the wespeak. Obviously this is MY point of view and MY truncating-job. I’m not trying to be unbiased, and I do take full responsibility for my irresponsibility.

  12. Justin L.

    I have to agree with Anonymous @ 12:18.Taking one single, only-partially-representative paragraph from an otherwise well-articulated Wespeak and calling that severely truncated clipping someone’s “views on Iraq withdrawal,” is entirely misleading.

  13. Justin L.

    I have to agree with Anonymous @ 12:18.Taking one single, only-partially-representative paragraph from an otherwise well-articulated Wespeak and calling that severely truncated clipping someone’s “views on Iraq withdrawal,” is entirely misleading.

  14. Justin L.

    I have to agree with Anonymous @ 12:18.

    Taking one single, only-partially-representative paragraph from an otherwise well-articulated Wespeak and calling that severely truncated clipping someone’s “views on Iraq withdrawal,” is entirely misleading.

  15. Anonymous

    Some people on this campus believe that the Middle East today is in shambles purely because of this war that we “started.” However, the reality is that the Middle East has had a tumultuous and dynamic history from its inception with the rule of the Caliphs through European colonization. The clash of civilizations is nothing new; for centuries, and long before 2003, Christians and Muslims have battled in the Crusades, the Spanish Reconquista, and the European/Ottoman struggle over the Mediterranean. The turning point in this rivalry has most certainly been the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, which vindicated the extremists while ousting the moderates. This turning point, coupled with President Carter’s inability to combat the rise of these Islamists, directly led to the current conflict. Iran immediately began to fund terrorist organizations, the most prominent one being Hezbollah, which two summers ago cowardly kidnapped Israeli soldiers, thus starting a devastating war for both countries. What many people do not realize is that this same Hezbollah had been responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans and Israelis decades before 9/11. To name a few prominent examples, they bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in 1983, killing 241 U.S. Marines as they slept; between 1982 and 1986, suicide attacks by their operatives claimed the lives of hundreds of people, and they bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 1992. In addition, have we forgotten about the failed 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? The mastermind behind the foiled plot was a man named Ramzi Yousef, who was finally arrested in Pakistan in 1995 in an al-Qaeda safe house (yes, the same al-Qaeda). As you can see, Islamic extremists attacking the U.S. did not begin in response to the current war in Iraq, but rather has a long record.

  16. Anonymous

    Some people on this campus believe that the Middle East today is in shambles purely because of this war that we “started.” However, the reality is that the Middle East has had a tumultuous and dynamic history from its inception with the rule of the Caliphs through European colonization. The clash of civilizations is nothing new; for centuries, and long before 2003, Christians and Muslims have battled in the Crusades, the Spanish Reconquista, and the European/Ottoman struggle over the Mediterranean. The turning point in this rivalry has most certainly been the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, which vindicated the extremists while ousting the moderates. This turning point, coupled with President Carter’s inability to combat the rise of these Islamists, directly led to the current conflict. Iran immediately began to fund terrorist organizations, the most prominent one being Hezbollah, which two summers ago cowardly kidnapped Israeli soldiers, thus starting a devastating war for both countries. What many people do not realize is that this same Hezbollah had been responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans and Israelis decades before 9/11. To name a few prominent examples, they bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in 1983, killing 241 U.S. Marines as they slept; between 1982 and 1986, suicide attacks by their operatives claimed the lives of hundreds of people, and they bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 1992. In addition, have we forgotten about the failed 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? The mastermind behind the foiled plot was a man named Ramzi Yousef, who was finally arrested in Pakistan in 1995 in an al-Qaeda safe house (yes, the same al-Qaeda). As you can see, Islamic extremists attacking the U.S. did not begin in response to the current war in Iraq, but rather has a long record.

  17. Anonymous

    Some people on this campus believe that the Middle East today is in shambles purely because of this war that we “started.” However, the reality is that the Middle East has had a tumultuous and dynamic history from its inception with the rule of the Caliphs through European colonization. The clash of civilizations is nothing new; for centuries, and long before 2003, Christians and Muslims have battled in the Crusades, the Spanish Reconquista, and the European/Ottoman struggle over the Mediterranean. The turning point in this rivalry has most certainly been the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, which vindicated the extremists while ousting the moderates. This turning point, coupled with President Carter’s inability to combat the rise of these Islamists, directly led to the current conflict. Iran immediately began to fund terrorist organizations, the most prominent one being Hezbollah, which two summers ago cowardly kidnapped Israeli soldiers, thus starting a devastating war for both countries. What many people do not realize is that this same Hezbollah had been responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans and Israelis decades before 9/11. To name a few prominent examples, they bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in 1983, killing 241 U.S. Marines as they slept; between 1982 and 1986, suicide attacks by their operatives claimed the lives of hundreds of people, and they bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 1992. In addition, have we forgotten about the failed 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? The mastermind behind the foiled plot was a man named Ramzi Yousef, who was finally arrested in Pakistan in 1995 in an al-Qaeda safe house (yes, the same al-Qaeda). As you can see, Islamic extremists attacking the U.S. did not begin in response to the current war in Iraq, but rather has a long record.

  18. Anonymous

    Shame on you, XIAOXI for this cut and hatching job you did to this article. The argument about Muslims hating our freedom is NOT the main argument. Please, everyone, read the entire article and not this little segment that leaves out almost the whole thing before commenting.

  19. Anonymous

    Shame on you, XIAOXI for this cut and hatching job you did to this article. The argument about Muslims hating our freedom is NOT the main argument. Please, everyone, read the entire article and not this little segment that leaves out almost the whole thing before commenting.

  20. Anonymous

    Shame on you, XIAOXI for this cut and hatching job you did to this article. The argument about Muslims hating our freedom is NOT the main argument. Please, everyone, read the entire article and not this little segment that leaves out almost the whole thing before commenting.

  21. Morgan

    To take an intentionally pragmatic attitude, I think it’s incredibly arrogant, stupid, and untenable to think we can somehow “fix” something as complex as a society. We have absolutely zero idea how societies work in any meaningful sense, less so about others as compared to our own, and disregarding for the moment the argument over whether or not we “broke” Iraq, it is impossible for us to make any meaningful progress toward fixing it, in lieu of any concrete knowledge about how Iraqi (or any) society operates. Social engineering of the kind necessary is simply not possible, and that this essential fact has been ignored by the so-called “conservatives” in our country betrays just what kid of backwards, single-party pseudo-democracy we’re living in.

  22. Morgan

    To take an intentionally pragmatic attitude, I think it’s incredibly arrogant, stupid, and untenable to think we can somehow “fix” something as complex as a society. We have absolutely zero idea how societies work in any meaningful sense, less so about others as compared to our own, and disregarding for the moment the argument over whether or not we “broke” Iraq, it is impossible for us to make any meaningful progress toward fixing it, in lieu of any concrete knowledge about how Iraqi (or any) society operates. Social engineering of the kind necessary is simply not possible, and that this essential fact has been ignored by the so-called “conservatives” in our country betrays just what kid of backwards, single-party pseudo-democracy we’re living in.

  23. Morgan

    To take an intentionally pragmatic attitude, I think it’s incredibly arrogant, stupid, and untenable to think we can somehow “fix” something as complex as a society. We have absolutely zero idea how societies work in any meaningful sense, less so about others as compared to our own, and disregarding for the moment the argument over whether or not we “broke” Iraq, it is impossible for us to make any meaningful progress toward fixing it, in lieu of any concrete knowledge about how Iraqi (or any) society operates. Social engineering of the kind necessary is simply not possible, and that this essential fact has been ignored by the so-called “conservatives” in our country betrays just what kid of backwards, single-party pseudo-democracy we’re living in.

  24. Tommy Bahama

    @ Sheek:Do you really think a prolonged American presence will actually mean anything though? Don’t buy into the Bush administration’s hype. The main reason why they’re whipping the success of the ‘surge’ so hard is so as to be able to show the American people, ‘hey look, we’re making SO much progress’, which will allow them to pass the problem of extricating the United States from Iraq on to Bush’s successor in 2009. See, they know that there’s no chance in hell that the US can make things work in Iraq, and they know extrication will be messy, so they’re trying to shift the problem to whomever is Bush’s successor. As for why the US presence is not working, one has only to realize that, in the Sunni ‘Awakening Councils’ that we’re putting so much faith in, are the same guys who were bombing and killing our troops 2-3 years ago. We’re just giving them money and guns and power now; but it’s just an alliance of convenience. Once our interests diverge, it’s over, and we’re back at loggerheads. It’s not a lasting solution. @ the guy who said “Why are troops any more deserving of support than doctors, teachers, etc.?” I answer, the day you drag your pampered ass off the Wesleyan campus and put yourself in harm’s way, when you risk your arms, legs, face, and life to shrapnel from IEDs and bullets, when you’ve been through all that kind of stuff, I’ll respect your opinion. That’s why I support our troops, no matter what. And until you’ve done that kind of shit, I’ll maintain the opinion that I do, which is, you’re a jackass, a loudmouth, and an ignorant moron.

  25. Tommy Bahama

    @ Sheek:Do you really think a prolonged American presence will actually mean anything though? Don’t buy into the Bush administration’s hype. The main reason why they’re whipping the success of the ‘surge’ so hard is so as to be able to show the American people, ‘hey look, we’re making SO much progress’, which will allow them to pass the problem of extricating the United States from Iraq on to Bush’s successor in 2009. See, they know that there’s no chance in hell that the US can make things work in Iraq, and they know extrication will be messy, so they’re trying to shift the problem to whomever is Bush’s successor. As for why the US presence is not working, one has only to realize that, in the Sunni ‘Awakening Councils’ that we’re putting so much faith in, are the same guys who were bombing and killing our troops 2-3 years ago. We’re just giving them money and guns and power now; but it’s just an alliance of convenience. Once our interests diverge, it’s over, and we’re back at loggerheads. It’s not a lasting solution. @ the guy who said “Why are troops any more deserving of support than doctors, teachers, etc.?” I answer, the day you drag your pampered ass off the Wesleyan campus and put yourself in harm’s way, when you risk your arms, legs, face, and life to shrapnel from IEDs and bullets, when you’ve been through all that kind of stuff, I’ll respect your opinion. That’s why I support our troops, no matter what. And until you’ve done that kind of shit, I’ll maintain the opinion that I do, which is, you’re a jackass, a loudmouth, and an ignorant moron.

  26. Tommy Bahama

    @ Sheek:

    Do you really think a prolonged American presence will actually mean anything though?

    Don’t buy into the Bush administration’s hype. The main reason why they’re whipping the success of the ‘surge’ so hard is so as to be able to show the American people, ‘hey look, we’re making SO much progress’, which will allow them to pass the problem of extricating the United States from Iraq on to Bush’s successor in 2009. See, they know that there’s no chance in hell that the US can make things work in Iraq, and they know extrication will be messy, so they’re trying to shift the problem to whomever is Bush’s successor.

    As for why the US presence is not working, one has only to realize that, in the Sunni ‘Awakening Councils’ that we’re putting so much faith in, are the same guys who were bombing and killing our troops 2-3 years ago. We’re just giving them money and guns and power now; but it’s just an alliance of convenience. Once our interests diverge, it’s over, and we’re back at loggerheads. It’s not a lasting solution.

    @ the guy who said “Why are troops any more deserving of support than doctors, teachers, etc.?”

    I answer, the day you drag your pampered ass off the Wesleyan campus and put yourself in harm’s way, when you risk your arms, legs, face, and life to shrapnel from IEDs and bullets, when you’ve been through all that kind of stuff, I’ll respect your opinion. That’s why I support our troops, no matter what. And until you’ve done that kind of shit, I’ll maintain the opinion that I do, which is, you’re a jackass, a loudmouth, and an ignorant moron.

  27. Xiaoxi

    the logistics and timeline for how and when to leave Iraq isn’t the main issue. The problem is the AMERICA: WORLD POLICE attitude that’s behind every word of this wespeak.

  28. Xiaoxi

    the logistics and timeline for how and when to leave Iraq isn’t the main issue. The problem is the AMERICA: WORLD POLICE attitude that’s behind every word of this wespeak.

  29. Xiaoxi

    the logistics and timeline for how and when to leave Iraq isn’t the main issue. The problem is the AMERICA: WORLD POLICE attitude that’s behind every word of this wespeak.

  30. Sheek

    ok, to everyone who’s generically “anti-war” and vaguely liberal and thinks we should just pull out of Iraq because it’s a shitty situation for us to be in: There probably isn’t any rational being who is well informed about the situation in Iraq who thinks that we have a right to be there, or that we have been doing a great job. That said, do you seriously think it’s a good idea to just pull out of a country torn by war that our country fucked up in the first place? I don’t agree completely with this WeSpeak, but I really don’t think there’s a valid argument against what Matt Nestler says in the passage quoted here. Yes, there are crazy radical Muslims in the world who virulently hate America for whatever reason (let’s not exaggerate the whole freedom-hating thing), but if we just got out of Iraq without making our sincerest effort to stabilize it first, it would go even further down the shithole, probably destabilize the entire geopolitical area, and be a source of endless aggravation in the years to come. There is an endless supply of historical evidence to back this up. We essentially created the radical regime in Iran today through neglect and ill-advised tampering in their government, paved the way for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and helped Saddam Hussein gain power in Iraq. All our recent problems with radical Islamic terrorism and despotic Middle-Eastern regimes today are directly traceable to American neglect and fuck-ups in the past. It’s about time we face up and do what we can to clean up the mess, and unfortunately the situation in Iraq is now part of that.

  31. Sheek

    ok, to everyone who’s generically “anti-war” and vaguely liberal and thinks we should just pull out of Iraq because it’s a shitty situation for us to be in: There probably isn’t any rational being who is well informed about the situation in Iraq who thinks that we have a right to be there, or that we have been doing a great job. That said, do you seriously think it’s a good idea to just pull out of a country torn by war that our country fucked up in the first place? I don’t agree completely with this WeSpeak, but I really don’t think there’s a valid argument against what Matt Nestler says in the passage quoted here. Yes, there are crazy radical Muslims in the world who virulently hate America for whatever reason (let’s not exaggerate the whole freedom-hating thing), but if we just got out of Iraq without making our sincerest effort to stabilize it first, it would go even further down the shithole, probably destabilize the entire geopolitical area, and be a source of endless aggravation in the years to come. There is an endless supply of historical evidence to back this up. We essentially created the radical regime in Iran today through neglect and ill-advised tampering in their government, paved the way for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and helped Saddam Hussein gain power in Iraq. All our recent problems with radical Islamic terrorism and despotic Middle-Eastern regimes today are directly traceable to American neglect and fuck-ups in the past. It’s about time we face up and do what we can to clean up the mess, and unfortunately the situation in Iraq is now part of that.

  32. Sheek

    ok, to everyone who’s generically “anti-war” and vaguely liberal and thinks we should just pull out of Iraq because it’s a shitty situation for us to be in:

    There probably isn’t any rational being who is well informed about the situation in Iraq who thinks that we have a right to be there, or that we have been doing a great job. That said, do you seriously think it’s a good idea to just pull out of a country torn by war that our country fucked up in the first place?

    I don’t agree completely with this WeSpeak, but I really don’t think there’s a valid argument against what Matt Nestler says in the passage quoted here. Yes, there are crazy radical Muslims in the world who virulently hate America for whatever reason (let’s not exaggerate the whole freedom-hating thing), but if we just got out of Iraq without making our sincerest effort to stabilize it first, it would go even further down the shithole, probably destabilize the entire geopolitical area, and be a source of endless aggravation in the years to come.

    There is an endless supply of historical evidence to back this up. We essentially created the radical regime in Iran today through neglect and ill-advised tampering in their government, paved the way for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and helped Saddam Hussein gain power in Iraq. All our recent problems with radical Islamic terrorism and despotic Middle-Eastern regimes today are directly traceable to American neglect and fuck-ups in the past. It’s about time we face up and do what we can to clean up the mess, and unfortunately the situation in Iraq is now part of that.

  33. Anonymous

    @ 11:26Do you honestly believe that? That somehow America’s “freedom” is an existent that just really gets those Muslims’ goat? That humans somehow react to abstract ideas with the same kind of intensity one associates with physical, personal attacks?

  34. Anonymous

    @ 11:26Do you honestly believe that? That somehow America’s “freedom” is an existent that just really gets those Muslims’ goat? That humans somehow react to abstract ideas with the same kind of intensity one associates with physical, personal attacks?

  35. Anonymous

    @ 11:26

    Do you honestly believe that? That somehow America’s “freedom” is an existent that just really gets those Muslims’ goat? That humans somehow react to abstract ideas with the same kind of intensity one associates with physical, personal attacks?

  36. Anonymous

    Why? The first sentence is factually correct. And ignoring that will cause more problems than Bush and Cheney ever did.

  37. Anonymous

    Why? The first sentence is factually correct. And ignoring that will cause more problems than Bush and Cheney ever did.

  38. Anonymous

    Why? The first sentence is factually correct. And ignoring that will cause more problems than Bush and Cheney ever did.

  39. Ian

    FTA: “right now our troops need our support more than ever.”Here’s a question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to: why do our troops deserve our support? It’s a voluntary position, and it’s a paid job. Why should I support the troops anymore than I support teachers, doctors, or firefighters?

  40. Ian

    FTA: “right now our troops need our support more than ever.”Here’s a question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to: why do our troops deserve our support? It’s a voluntary position, and it’s a paid job. Why should I support the troops anymore than I support teachers, doctors, or firefighters?

  41. Ian

    FTA: “right now our troops need our support more than ever.”
    Here’s a question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to: why do our troops deserve our support? It’s a voluntary position, and it’s a paid job. Why should I support the troops anymore than I support teachers, doctors, or firefighters?

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