By request, here’s the comment that Prof. Claire Potter, aka Tenured Radical, wrote on Ed McKeon’s blog:
As a blogger myself who has often been criticized for responses to things that are too quick and idiosyncratic, I don’t want to come down too hard on you. But — allowing for the fact that students were drunk and undoubtedly overreacted because of that — that the police showed up with dogs, tasers and pepper spray in the first place is outrageous. Tasers are sometimes a lethal weapon, not a harmless crowd-control device. Pepper spray, if it gets in the eyes, can cause permanent damage. To be attacked and bitten by a dog is a terrifying and possibly life-changing experience. At its worst, the party was a noise nuisance: students were not trying to interfere with a function of government, nor were they doing anything more harmful than being a pain in the ass to some of their neighbors. Students did not deserve riot control tactics typical of Birmingham in the 1960’s or the West Bank for acting as kids do when they are confronted by authority. While I wish our students had simply been compliant and not escalated the confrontation, not being deferential to unreasoning, violent authority should not make anyone — Wesleyan students or Middletwon citizens — subject to assault and battery by the police.
The Middletown Police response is a function of the ways law enforcement in general has been amped up in the past eight years by Homeland Security money, using a non-existent threat of domestic terrorism as an excuse. The MPD used this as an excuse to make an example of Wesleyan students — nothing more, nothing less. And an argument that says the students deserved it because they didn’t follow orders is just absurd. If your kid doesn’t do what you say, do you have the moral — much less the legal — right to whip him?
There is tremendous resentment of Wesleyan in Middletown, something the university has been trying to address and needs to keep working on, and in this case, the MPD are the leading edge of that resentment. But there are two issues internal to Wesleyan that also need to be addressed: Wesleyan Public Safety’s decision making here, and their possible grievances in terms of what they have to deal with all year (rudeness, aggression from students when they are trying to do their jobs) in relation to such events while also being available 24-7 to be cab drivers, open locked dorm doors, and transport students in various states of inebriation and disrepair; and the possible consequences of Wesleyan’s policy of selling off its houses, which will bring private homeowners in Middletown into closer contact with student events like this one.
Claire Potter
Professor of History and American Studies
Wesleyan University
5:30pm — How about arresting students without using brutality? If they wanted students to disperse they could’ve brought out handcuffs rather than paintball guns. In what world is going from verbally asking someone to leave to shooting them with a weapon the next logical step. Give me a break.
5:30pm — How about arresting students without using brutality? If they wanted students to disperse they could’ve brought out handcuffs rather than paintball guns. In what world is going from verbally asking someone to leave to shooting them with a weapon the next logical step. Give me a break.
“5:30, you clearly were not on fountain thursday night. the police were not asking students to leave until a couple minutes prior to attacking.”I was there the entire time and… that’s just not true. Public safety came and asked everyone to disperse and everyone ignored them (granted that is pretty standard reaction to Psafe). Then when TEN MPD and state cruisers arrive, did you think they were there to join the party? They definitely attempted to disperse people more than once. Also, I feel once that bottle/can was thrown, it was headed toward a violent conclusion no matter what.At the same time, I feel there were grave errors in judgment made by the police as well, particularly the sociopath officers firing at girls running away and at people who were trying to help their friends off the street. It was just a bad, bad situation involving poor judgment on both sides. Students were reacting the way they would to the docile PSafe and not city police with protocol, and the police entirely overreacted and clearly were getting aggression out by using students for target practice.
“5:30, you clearly were not on fountain thursday night. the police were not asking students to leave until a couple minutes prior to attacking.”
I was there the entire time and… that’s just not true. Public safety came and asked everyone to disperse and everyone ignored them (granted that is pretty standard reaction to Psafe). Then when TEN MPD and state cruisers arrive, did you think they were there to join the party? They definitely attempted to disperse people more than once. Also, I feel once that bottle/can was thrown, it was headed toward a violent conclusion no matter what.
At the same time, I feel there were grave errors in judgment made by the police as well, particularly the sociopath officers firing at girls running away and at people who were trying to help their friends off the street. It was just a bad, bad situation involving poor judgment on both sides. Students were reacting the way they would to the docile PSafe and not city police with protocol, and the police entirely overreacted and clearly were getting aggression out by using students for target practice.
“Comparing this to Birmingham and the West Bank is an attempt to play the race card and make this a political issue when it is nothing more than drunken students…Potter; you haven’t got a clue!”4:32, Have you got a clue?I feel that you contradict yourself when, on the one hand you say that “the use of non-lethal tactics…is well-studied and executed by police departments” (implying a historical and political history behind these tactics) and on the other you blame Potter for making this “a political issue.” How is it not a political issue? Just because these tactics are “well-studied” does not make them right. Hitler had a “well-studied” plan for executing his Mein Kampf, but this in no way makes it morally right.I think it is important for Professor Potter to bring up past incidents of police violence, and contextualize the incidents of Thursday night within a broader political and historical framework. We cannot view Thursday night as an isolated incident: pepper-spray guns, dogs…all of these tools of power (that were used in an absurd way against our college peers) are loaded with meaning. Beyond their mechanical function, these tools are symbols that have an emotional impact rooted in events like Birmingham and the West Bank—this must be acknowledged. Professor Potter has the right to draw parallels—all of these incidents share a theme; police using violence because they can, not because they need to. I think that certain student conduct was out of line (throwing beer, cursing the police). But this was much out-weighed by the violent conduct of the police.
“Comparing this to Birmingham and the West Bank is an attempt to play the race card and make this a political issue when it is nothing more than drunken students…Potter; you haven’t got a clue!”
4:32, Have you got a clue?
I feel that you contradict yourself when, on the one hand you say that “the use of non-lethal tactics…is well-studied and executed by police departments” (implying a historical and political history behind these tactics) and on the other you blame Potter for making this “a political issue.” How is it not a political issue? Just because these tactics are “well-studied” does not make them right. Hitler had a “well-studied” plan for executing his Mein Kampf, but this in no way makes it morally right.
I think it is important for Professor Potter to bring up past incidents of police violence, and contextualize the incidents of Thursday night within a broader political and historical framework. We cannot view Thursday night as an isolated incident: pepper-spray guns, dogs…all of these tools of power (that were used in an absurd way against our college peers) are loaded with meaning. Beyond their mechanical function, these tools are symbols that have an emotional impact rooted in events like Birmingham and the West Bank—this must be acknowledged. Professor Potter has the right to draw parallels—all of these incidents share a theme; police using violence because they can, not because they need to.
I think that certain student conduct was out of line (throwing beer, cursing the police). But this was much out-weighed by the violent conduct of the police.
5:11,I have met people at the party on Fountain who believe that the wesleyan students weren’t completely blameless. I absolutely agree with you that the police brutality was atrocious, but what about the way in which the wesleyan students were acting the good 20-30 min the cops were there before chaos ensued? Also, wesleyan students are not stupid, but very drunk students do not have the best reasoning capabilities, especially when there is a large group of people and tensions start to rise. Throwing bottles at cops is not intelligent. I’m sorry to say it, but it’s not. Still, I think what the cops did after that fact was way out of hand.
“that the police showed up with dogs, tasers and pepper spray in the first place is outrageous”So let me get this straight – the cops are outnumbered about 10 to 1 by drunken kids on a public street at 1:30 in the a.m., have asked these same kids to disperse for more than an hour and they haven’t- and HOW are they supposed to get them to move? Sorry Claire, but if somehow 300 drunk Yalies showed up on your street in New Haven at 1:30 a.m. and wouldn’t go away for an hour you’re telling me you want the cops to use exactly what to disperse the crowd? Because pleas and dialoging weren’t getting it done.
5:11,
I have met people at the party on Fountain who believe that the wesleyan students weren’t completely blameless. I absolutely agree with you that the police brutality was atrocious, but what about the way in which the wesleyan students were acting the good 20-30 min the cops were there before chaos ensued? Also, wesleyan students are not stupid, but very drunk students do not have the best reasoning capabilities, especially when there is a large group of people and tensions start to rise. Throwing bottles at cops is not intelligent. I’m sorry to say it, but it’s not. Still, I think what the cops did after that fact was way out of hand.
“that the police showed up with dogs, tasers and pepper spray in the first place is outrageous”
So let me get this straight – the cops are outnumbered about 10 to 1 by drunken kids on a public street at 1:30 in the a.m., have asked these same kids to disperse for more than an hour and they haven’t- and HOW are they supposed to get them to move? Sorry Claire, but if somehow 300 drunk Yalies showed up on your street in New Haven at 1:30 a.m. and wouldn’t go away for an hour you’re telling me you want the cops to use exactly what to disperse the crowd? Because pleas and dialoging weren’t getting it done.
You will be hardpressed to find any students who were present on fountain thursday night/friday morning that did not find the actions of the police unnecessary and excessive. if you find one, let me know.Additionally, the students there weren’t just CRAZY PARTY KIDS. as has been mentioned, many of the people there were students living on fountain avenue, having left their homes to see what was going on. In other words, there was a large variety of students, in both backgrounds and lifestyles, present that night.Now, take these things into account along with the fact that obviously wesleyan students are not stupid. we (the students present on foundtain) would not be making such a fuss about this incident if we, as intelligent and educated individuals, did not feel that such a fuss was absolutely necessary.Obviously roth needs time to gather information from all sides of this incident, but it’s now been 2,3 days. He’s likely gotten most of the information he’s going to get by this point. With that information in hand, coupled with the 3 points i made above, the fact that roth, and the university on teh whole for that matter, has still not taken any sort of definitive stance is very disheartening.
You will be hardpressed to find any students who were present on fountain thursday night/friday morning that did not find the actions of the police unnecessary and excessive. if you find one, let me know.
Additionally, the students there weren’t just CRAZY PARTY KIDS. as has been mentioned, many of the people there were students living on fountain avenue, having left their homes to see what was going on. In other words, there was a large variety of students, in both backgrounds and lifestyles, present that night.
Now, take these things into account along with the fact that obviously wesleyan students are not stupid. we (the students present on foundtain) would not be making such a fuss about this incident if we, as intelligent and educated individuals, did not feel that such a fuss was absolutely necessary.
Obviously roth needs time to gather information from all sides of this incident, but it’s now been 2,3 days. He’s likely gotten most of the information he’s going to get by this point. With that information in hand, coupled with the 3 points i made above, the fact that roth, and the university on teh whole for that matter, has still not taken any sort of definitive stance is very disheartening.
Here’s what I think:One advantage to mroth waiting a few days before making any definitive remarks (aside from the ones already cited) would be the concentrated media attention it will garner. For that reason alone, he needs to be sure of his facts.Secondly, I don’t think he necessarily needs to be emotional or one-sided about it. Professor Potter has already set the standard here. Wesleyan is a scholarly community. It will address this situation in a scholarly fashion.That doesn’t mean that he has to surrender all capacity to feel empathy. He is the parent of three (???) children, at least one of which lives at home with he and his wife in Middletown? He will have to speak in that role in order to assure the hundreds of other parents of children living in Middletown that their offspring are safe living here; that Middletown is not in a state of war; that responsible civil authorities are in no way engaged in a vendetta against Wesleyan students.He also needs to be frank and admit that mistakes were made.He needs to acknowledge that there are hazards associated with everyday city life. It includes occasional brushes with crime. It includes possible brushes with law enforcement. MRoth has to make clear that Middletown is no better or worse than other similarly situated cities in New England.He has to somehow capture what it is that binds us all, town and gown, to this place; some of us long after we’ve left it.And, then — most importantly — he has to address the future. What can we all do to make sure that something like this doesn’t happen again? From there, I think all options are still on the table. MRoth needs to make clear that this is an ongoing conversation that has been derailed. It needs to be put back on track for everyone’s sake.
Here’s what I think:
One advantage to mroth waiting a few days before making any definitive remarks (aside from the ones already cited) would be the concentrated media attention it will garner. For that reason alone, he needs to be sure of his facts.
Secondly, I don’t think he necessarily needs to be emotional or one-sided about it. Professor Potter has already set the standard here. Wesleyan is a scholarly community. It will address this situation in a scholarly fashion.
That doesn’t mean that he has to surrender all capacity to feel empathy. He is the parent of three (???) children, at least one of which lives at home with he and his wife in Middletown? He will have to speak in that role in order to assure the hundreds of other parents of children living in Middletown that their offspring are safe living here; that Middletown is not in a state of war; that responsible civil authorities are in no way engaged in a vendetta against Wesleyan students.
He also needs to be frank and admit that mistakes were made.
He needs to acknowledge that there are hazards associated with everyday city life. It includes occasional brushes with crime. It includes possible brushes with law enforcement. MRoth has to make clear that Middletown is no better or worse than other similarly situated cities in New England.
He has to somehow capture what it is that binds us all, town and gown, to this place; some of us long after we’ve left it.
And, then — most importantly — he has to address the future. What can we all do to make sure that something like this doesn’t happen again? From there, I think all options are still on the table. MRoth needs to make clear that this is an ongoing conversation that has been derailed. It needs to be put back on track for everyone’s sake.
Agreed, 4:55
Agreed, 4:55
4:32 – the question does not lie in whether the tactics the police used were effective in dispersing the crowd, but whether the unruliness of the crowd deemed itself necessary to warrant such last-resort tactics.I also believe that I would rather have a president who makes an informed, un-biased decision regarding the situation than blindly supporting the stance of the students simply BECAUSE he is our president.
4:32 – the question does not lie in whether the tactics the police used were effective in dispersing the crowd, but whether the unruliness of the crowd deemed itself necessary to warrant such last-resort tactics.
I also believe that I would rather have a president who makes an informed, un-biased decision regarding the situation than blindly supporting the stance of the students simply BECAUSE he is our president.
Potter hasn’t a clue as to how police exert their authority. The use of non-lethal tactics to gain control and disperse a crowd is well studied and executed by police departments. Comparing this to Birmingham and the West Bank is an attempt to play the race card and make this a political issue when it is nothing more than drunken students. The reference to Homeland Security and domestic terrorism is a thinly veiled attempt to blame George Bush. Go back to the classroom Potter; you haven’t a clue!
Potter hasn’t a clue as to how police exert their authority. The use of non-lethal tactics to gain control and disperse a crowd is well studied and executed by police departments.
Comparing this to Birmingham and the West Bank is an attempt to play the race card and make this a political issue when it is nothing more than drunken students. The reference to Homeland Security and domestic terrorism is a thinly veiled attempt to blame George Bush. Go back to the classroom Potter; you haven’t a clue!
“Really, guys? I like Prof Potter’s comments, but I also think Roth has done a pretty great job responding so far.(1) It’s great he showed up at like 3 am to deal with the situation(2) It’s great he decided to host a forum to discuss it immediately the next day at 9 am(3) It’s great he’s been trying to gather all the facts before jumping to conclusions or making a rash statement/decisionCould you have seen Doug Bennet doing any of those things?”Firstly, he was woken up by students at his house which was why he came in the first place. Secondly, he always opens his doors at 9. Why wasn’t he at the student forum at 3:00 when the most students were able to show up and he would actually have to answer questions. If not him why was there only one member of his administration present who basically dodged all questions referring to poor policy decisions that prompted the police to be there in the first place? A president should show support for the students, something Roth has failed to do. He has allowed this period of doubt to drag out so long that memories of the event are getting skewed and students are beginning to get represented as drunk, violent lunatics which, as someone who was there and who was hurt, I can vouch was NOT the case when the attacks started. We were not rioting and the police task force treated us like animals. I was drunk and unruly but in now way did I pose a threat dangerous enough to warrant dogs and pepper spray. Let’s keep in mind, this was a party on Fountain. there wasn’t even alcohol there. Students were told to leave the houses they were in and then once in the street were told to leave. Where, precisely, on the last night of finals were students to go? And Doug Bennet is hardly my benchmark for administrative excellence. Please stop thanking the administration for doing the barest barest minimum. They have a responsibility to represent their student body not the same police who have been quoted saying, as Officer Clark did, “I hate those fucking kids.” The faculty also has a responsibility to side with the students who they spend day after day with in class, in meetings, students who demand their tenure and support their publications and students who they should have learned to trust by now. Attacked were the student body Treasurer and the President of the Senior Class. This was obviously pent-up, unjust anger against Wesleyan students that was executed in a methodical and cruel fashion. Andrew Price was attacked by a dog inside of a University house. He has staples in his scalp and a bite mark on his leg. There is NO excuse for that. There is very little “further examination” necessary.
“Really, guys? I like Prof Potter’s comments, but I also think Roth has done a pretty great job responding so far.
(1) It’s great he showed up at like 3 am to deal with the situation
(2) It’s great he decided to host a forum to discuss it immediately the next day at 9 am
(3) It’s great he’s been trying to gather all the facts before jumping to conclusions or making a rash statement/decision
Could you have seen Doug Bennet doing any of those things?”
Firstly, he was woken up by students at his house which was why he came in the first place. Secondly, he always opens his doors at 9. Why wasn’t he at the student forum at 3:00 when the most students were able to show up and he would actually have to answer questions. If not him why was there only one member of his administration present who basically dodged all questions referring to poor policy decisions that prompted the police to be there in the first place? A president should show support for the students, something Roth has failed to do. He has allowed this period of doubt to drag out so long that memories of the event are getting skewed and students are beginning to get represented as drunk, violent lunatics which, as someone who was there and who was hurt, I can vouch was NOT the case when the attacks started. We were not rioting and the police task force treated us like animals. I was drunk and unruly but in now way did I pose a threat dangerous enough to warrant dogs and pepper spray. Let’s keep in mind, this was a party on Fountain. there wasn’t even alcohol there. Students were told to leave the houses they were in and then once in the street were told to leave. Where, precisely, on the last night of finals were students to go? And Doug Bennet is hardly my benchmark for administrative excellence. Please stop thanking the administration for doing the barest barest minimum. They have a responsibility to represent their student body not the same police who have been quoted saying, as Officer Clark did, “I hate those fucking kids.” The faculty also has a responsibility to side with the students who they spend day after day with in class, in meetings, students who demand their tenure and support their publications and students who they should have learned to trust by now. Attacked were the student body Treasurer and the President of the Senior Class. This was obviously pent-up, unjust anger against Wesleyan students that was executed in a methodical and cruel fashion. Andrew Price was attacked by a dog inside of a University house. He has staples in his scalp and a bite mark on his leg. There is NO excuse for that. There is very little “further examination” necessary.
Thanks for posting this, I think Professor captured everything I was thinking in far more eloquent terms.
Thanks for posting this, I think Professor captured everything I was thinking in far more eloquent terms.
Prof. Potter writes:“The Middletown Police response is a function of the ways law enforcement in general has been amped up in the past eight years by Homeland Security money, using a non-existent threat of domestic terrorism as an excuse” I say thank goodness for the “ramping up”overall in response to real threats, domestic and foreign.Anyway, I blog today on the commencement and present/past student-police clashes at ConservaCity. Happy Spring and congrats to all the new grads. Special kudos to Holly.
Prof. Potter writes:“The Middletown Police response is a function of the ways law enforcement in general has been amped up in the past eight years by Homeland Security money, using a non-existent threat of domestic terrorism as an excuse”
I say thank goodness for the “ramping up”overall in response to real threats, domestic and foreign.Anyway, I blog today on the commencement and present/past student-police clashes at ConservaCity. Happy Spring and congrats to all the new grads. Special kudos to Holly.
I agree with Madjoy. Roth has to represent not just wesleyan students but wesleyan faculty, administration, and alumni. As someone who has to mediate between multiple communties, I think it is very acceptable for him to take a neutral stance only one day after the events transpired. You have to ask yourself, do you want Roth to make a definitive decision, or do you just want him to agree with everything that you think? I believe that Claire Potter wrote an excellent response, and I also believe that it’s very hard for Roth to take a firm stance with Wesleyan students when when there was initial student escalation and he also has a college image to withhold and protect, however wrong you might think that may be.
I agree with Madjoy. Roth has to represent not just wesleyan students but wesleyan faculty, administration, and alumni. As someone who has to mediate between multiple communties, I think it is very acceptable for him to take a neutral stance only one day after the events transpired. You have to ask yourself, do you want Roth to make a definitive decision, or do you just want him to agree with everything that you think? I believe that Claire Potter wrote an excellent response, and I also believe that it’s very hard for Roth to take a firm stance with Wesleyan students when when there was initial student escalation and he also has a college image to withhold and protect, however wrong you might think that may be.
It’s still tremendously unclear to outsiders what exactly happened that night. Conflicting reports from the police and various students make it hard to take a “definitive” stance at this point – and as a university president, he’s extremely accountable for what he says. I don’t see a problem with him waiting to make sure he gets what he says right, before saying it.Also, I think that people who argue that Roth is making “attempts to mainstream the school” are exaggerating. I don’t think he has any overarching malicious intentions to change the character of Wesleyan and mainstream it (whereas, I do think Bennet to a large extent did). I think he’s trying to change some things / support some things that I don’t really agree with (read: chalking, Zonker Harris Day, etc.) but I don’t see the conspiracy behind it. I earnestly believe Roth loves Wesleyan as it is and wants it to maintain its unique character.
It’s still tremendously unclear to outsiders what exactly happened that night. Conflicting reports from the police and various students make it hard to take a “definitive” stance at this point – and as a university president, he’s extremely accountable for what he says. I don’t see a problem with him waiting to make sure he gets what he says right, before saying it.
Also, I think that people who argue that Roth is making “attempts to mainstream the school” are exaggerating. I don’t think he has any overarching malicious intentions to change the character of Wesleyan and mainstream it (whereas, I do think Bennet to a large extent did). I think he’s trying to change some things / support some things that I don’t really agree with (read: chalking, Zonker Harris Day, etc.) but I don’t see the conspiracy behind it. I earnestly believe Roth loves Wesleyan as it is and wants it to maintain its unique character.
mad joy:despite of all this, he’s yet to take any sort of definitive stance on what happened – a stance he should have made by this point. he will continue to take actions that make it seem as if he’s being proactive, but ultimately just place him in a safe neutral, position. obviously he’s doing a better job than bennet – i don’t think that’s very hard. but what we need right now is a president who will stand with us (which should be the evident course of action he should take if he’s taken so many accounts of students on the events), not a president who will play a neutral position to safeguard his future attempts to mainstream the school.
also, bravo Prof. Potter
mad joy:
despite of all this, he’s yet to take any sort of definitive stance on what happened – a stance he should have made by this point. he will continue to take actions that make it seem as if he’s being proactive, but ultimately just place him in a safe neutral, position.
obviously he’s doing a better job than bennet – i don’t think that’s very hard. but what we need right now is a president who will stand with us (which should be the evident course of action he should take if he’s taken so many accounts of students on the events), not a president who will play a neutral position to safeguard his future attempts to mainstream the school.
also, bravo Prof. Potter
I don’t think we should immediately condemn Roth, but we have to acknowledge what he is. A university president can’t really be confrontational with the police, even when they deserve it. We shouldn’t get mad, but we should be able to take care of ourselves.If we want to respond to the MPD (eg, try to keep them off campus, protest, do some civil disobedience whatever), we should organize it ourselves. When we’re victimized by authority, we shouldn’t rely on some other authority to protect us. We’re adults.
I don’t think we should immediately condemn Roth, but we have to acknowledge what he is. A university president can’t really be confrontational with the police, even when they deserve it. We shouldn’t get mad, but we should be able to take care of ourselves.
If we want to respond to the MPD (eg, try to keep them off campus, protest, do some civil disobedience whatever), we should organize it ourselves. When we’re victimized by authority, we shouldn’t rely on some other authority to protect us. We’re adults.
parenthetically, has anyone actually seen a photo/videotape of the damaged cop windshield?
parenthetically, has anyone actually seen a photo/videotape of the damaged cop windshield?
Really, guys? I like Prof Potter’s comments, but I also think Roth has done a pretty great job responding so far.(1) It’s great he showed up at like 3 am to deal with the situation(2) It’s great he decided to host a forum to discuss it immediately the next day at 9 am(3) It’s great he’s been trying to gather all the facts before jumping to conclusions or making a rash statement/decisionCould you have seen Doug Bennet doing any of those things?
Really, guys? I like Prof Potter’s comments, but I also think Roth has done a pretty great job responding so far.
(1) It’s great he showed up at like 3 am to deal with the situation
(2) It’s great he decided to host a forum to discuss it immediately the next day at 9 am
(3) It’s great he’s been trying to gather all the facts before jumping to conclusions or making a rash statement/decision
Could you have seen Doug Bennet doing any of those things?
yeah roth is obviously going to side with MPD and say fuck the students. you heard it here first.
yeah roth is obviously going to side with MPD and say fuck the students. you heard it here first.
The response that the administration should have been giving all along. And, the response we will probably never get from them. Thank god at least someone can see the situation correctly and doesn’t need a “further examination of the facts at hand.”
The response that the administration should have been giving all along. And, the response we will probably never get from them. Thank god at least someone can see the situation correctly and doesn’t need a “further examination of the facts at hand.”
yeah, holy shit. nice.
yeah, holy shit. nice.
ditto
ditto
VERY well said.
VERY well said.